Do Clubs Need to Recite the Pledge of Allegiance?
Dec 29
In District 55, some Toastmasters are quite certain that every club meeting, every contest, every event should open with the Pledge of Allegiance, and teach this to new and existing clubs. Toastmasters International has very little to say on the matter, but let’s take a look at what is in writing.
http://www.toastmasters.org/Members/MemberExperience/MeetingRoles/Pledge.aspx says:
The pledge of allegiance, or other recognition of the club’s host country, is an optional part of club meetings.
And http://www.toastmasters.org/Members/OfficerResources/ClubOfficerResources/InvocationsandPledges.aspx has:
Pledges
A pledge to the flag or other recognition of the host country is another optional part of Toastmasters meetings. Each individual member’s participation in the pledge is optional, and club leaders should ensure that members are not pressured into taking part.Members decide at the club level
It is up to each club to decide whether or not to include an invocation, thought for the day, inspirational message, and/or pledge at each meeting. The decision is made by majority vote at a club’s business meeting when a majority of active members is present. Club leaders are responsible for arranging and abiding by this vote.
Interestingly, note that the emphasis is on the webpage. Toastmasters International wants to heavily stress that this role is not required. In fact, the page goes on to note that the club should have a formal vote to even include this role in their meetings.
So do clubs “need” to perform the pledge? A resounding no. Then comes a much trickier question… should they?
This is most definitely a matter of opinion. Different individuals and different clubs will have different answers. This should be a conscious and carefully considered decision, however, not one that is simply assumed to be one way or the other.
On the one hand, some people feel giving the pledge respects local tradition, or is something that should be done in every place and occasion possible to reflect patriotism.
On the other hand, the pledge takes up valuable meeting time without providing any educational value. It makes non-citizens feel uncomfortable and out of place. They often are not sure of how to act (it is polite to stand with the others, but there is no need for them to speak or put their hands over their hearts). It requires the presence of a flag, which adds to the burden of club inventory, meeting room setup and teardown. College classes do not start with a pledge. Workshops do not start with the pledge. Meetings at businesses do not start with the pledge. Social gatherings do not start with the pledge. Why should Toastmasters start with the pledge?
I’ll admit to being a bit biased—but the point is that a club should say “this is an optional meeting segment, with these advantages and disadvantages. Let’s vote on whether to include it or exclude it in our future meetings” instead of “hey, we have to do this in every meeting.”
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Any meeting that even optionally chooses to start with a pledge to anything (including a country) has automatically lost my respect and membership. ToastMasters is already a cultish organization. I don’t begin my professional meetings with a pledge and I dont clap everytime someone stands up to talk for a minute.
I recently attended a Toastmasters meeting in Deerfield Beach, Florida and was really surprised and felt uncomfortable about them doing the pledge before the meeting. I thought about it afterwards and have talked to a number of other people about it since. It really felt inappropriate to do that there and I agree with some of the criticisms made here. What does this pledge have to do with the activities of Toastmasters? Really, nothing. It made me have reservations about returning even though I found what the group was doing interesting. And the constant clapping almost felt like I was in a second grade class….do adults really need all that positive reinforcement? It felt phony and forced.
You should be ashamed of yourself for saying such thing.
Pledging allegiance to the flag of the United States of America make you cultish?
I agree. My club doesn’t do pledge of allegiance and I would need to go to a different one that doesn’t do it
Toastmasters is a club which deals with speaking. And speaking freely.
The pledge of allegiance of the United States guarantees that free speech.
The pledge does not guarantee freedom of speech, the Constitution does.
Our Constitution was written by Christian men only for people with morality. It makes no sense if you don’t have morals. We are a Christian nation. That means you have Freedom. Our nation’s freedom comes from God. You have freedom BECAUSE of Christianity, plain and simple. That’s it. You don’t have to be Christian, you don’t have to say a pledge, but you DO have to acknowledge you are in a country where that WILL and should happen. We all should at least kiss the ground we are walking on and support and thank the Christians for our freedom. Otherwise, believe what you want but you are not changing our nation to be anything else but free. Personal problems with the flag are just that, personal problems. No one else is responsible to change or deal with personal problems.
The one country where we are not suppressed to acknowledge our American freedom, is America. The Pledge should be mandatory to lead but not mandatory to recite. We are in America and the pledge belongs here. It is a personal problem if anyone doesn’t want it and that should be addressed personally. Everyone should be ok that even though they don’t like America or our honoring of it, that the very freedom they have to not like America is ok but you have to know, it will be acknowledged in this country and that is normal. The Pledge of Allegiance will be said by Americans and to try to squash it out is wrong. To live here and try to replace it is wrong.
Your article leaves out something. You acknowledge people from other countries and the uncomfortableness they may feel at reciting the pledge but you neglected to mention that not everyone shares the christian faith and saying “under god” is pretty distasteful.
I strongly agree.
I don’t even get how Congress passed that in 1954. Seems a major breach of the separation of church and state and is definitely exclusionary. We want out club to be inclusive and welcoming to everyone. It is Toastmaster INTERNATIONAL after all.
“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof”
Please explain how including “under God” in the pledge violates that clause.
OUR FREEDOM HERE IS UNDER GOD. If you are from another country, too bad. You are here. It is not anyone’s responsibility to care about personal feelings. You can go back to your country OR you can kiss the ground you are walking on and be proud of the people who love their culture here. It is not disrespectful for us to honor our country. It is disprespectful to ask us to bend over for an individual. Our Constitution was written by Christian men only for people with morality. It makes no sense if you don’t have morals. We are a Christian nation. That means you have Freedom. Our nation’s freedom comes from God. You have freedom BECAUSE of Christianity, plain and simple. That’s it. You don’t have to be Christian, you don’t have to say a pledge, but you DO have to acknowledge you are in a country where that WILL and should happen. We all should at least kiss the ground we are walking on and support and thank the Christians for our freedom. Otherwise, believe what you want but you are not changing our nation to be anything else but free. Personal problems with the flag are just that, personal problems. No one else is responsible to change or deal with personal problems.
I’m so glad to be reading the dissent here. I have joined a club which I love that routinely starts with an invocation (often ending in “Amen”) an the pledge. I am extremely uncomfortable with both–although born and raised in the US, I have lived all over the world and feel that the pledge has no educational or elucidative role in our meetings. I live in Miami where several of our members are not US citizens; this fifth-grade routine is very distasteful to me, and although I’ve never discussed it with them, I assume it is for them too. One can love and honor one’s country wihout reciting a pledge that blurs, among other things, the separation of church and state and forces its citizens to acknowledge his allegiance. I have attended meetings in other countries and no such thing is forced upon the members. I stand with my fellow Toastmasters but remain mute throughout the pledge.
Let us recite the Toastmasters Club Pledge instead.
We, the members of ____________ Toastmasters, pledge to support our quest for self-development by providing positive, helpful evaluations, maintain a friendly, supportive atmosphere, to give opportunities to help others, and to make meetings a rewarding and fulfilling experience.
I’ve never heard of this Toastmasters Club Pledge and can’t find it on toastmasters.org, but when I visited some Toastmasters clubs in the Philippines they did start meetings by reciting something. I think it was the Toastmasters Promise: https://www.toastmasters.org/about/toastmasters-promise
I’m not a fan of reciting anything by rote. I feel it would make the meeting feel more cult-like, which would also not be welcoming to guests, and that the words would lose all meaning. I do think clubs could stand to be reminded more often of their goals to work together on self-improvement, though!
This sounds like the club mission, with which I’d rather start any meeting. In my experience this is what Toastmasters is about. An international organization that facilitates an atmosphere to develop leaders and speakers. Right?
No. The pledge of allegiance will not be wiped out by personal feelings. It means something. It is deeply honoring our freedom and greatness of our nation which is under God and Christian values which make all of us free. You do not have to say it. But you do have to accept Americans will say it.
I’m glad to hear the pledge isn’t a universally embraced tradition in Toastmasters. I recently joined a club that I like a lot, but I also find the rote reciting of the U.S. pledge to be highly uncomfortable. This conversation gives me more confidence in sitting it out, even as a new member.
Feelings are personal. But Americans will say the pledge and people need to get used to it. You are in America. Wise to sit it out if you don’t want to say it but you should rightly acknowledge it isn’t going anywhere.
This discussion is typically handled at the charter meeting and incorporated into the Club Bylaws. Besides having a Club Officer meeting, please include any remaining charter members to the group (for discussion). They might have information not known by the current administration.
It’s interesting you say that. I’ve never heard this decision decided at club chartering. Only a few specific, high-level decisions are put in writing at that point, such as how frequently the club meets and what local dues they charge. For the full list, see pages 22 and 23 of the Toastmasters Club Constitution, which is what the founding members fill out when chartering the club.
Of course at any point the club members can decide which roles they do and do not want in their meetings, such as an invocation.
Question – Does any body know…are there any stats on the number of potential members the omitting of the pledge may attract? What percentage do you think it deters?
Good to read the discussion here. I’m German and a big fan of TM, have been in several clubs in this country and am now in an international club.
I find reciting the pledge (just the TM pledge, of course) a bit off-putting and cultish. I’m always afraid of alienating visitors to the club with all the elements that seem a bit corporate and overly formal, the clapping, the ribbons, the badges – and reciting a pledge is definitely a step too far.
Of course, I have no statistics on how many guests would be deterred by a pledge, but I know that people in many European countries have turned their back on organized religion and have a pretty cynical view of ‘mission statements’ and ‘pledges’ and would walk out if they were required to any kind of chanting in unison, although there is nothing at all in the pledge itself that I personally object to.
Our guests mostly respond to all the elements that are universally attractive to Toastmasters. The experience of being up on stage during table topics, a friendly atmosphere, a good explanation of the meeting outline with all the roles that provide feedback. And of course, they come to appreciate the education program that TM offers.
PS – we did recite the pledge during the officers induction ceremony, conducted of course by an American member. I felt pretty silly, but an international club is built on compromise…
I attended as a guest and was very turned off by the pledge. Besides it feeling un-American to me, the addition of “under God” is disrespectful to atheists. To me, this was something I think I would be required to do at meetings held in countries like Iran, not the USA. This is not what my father and his brother fought for in WWII.
The Pledge of Allegiance should not make anyone feel uncomfortable. If you’re living in the United States, you should show respect to the core values of this nation. If anyone doesn’t want to pledge allegiance, that’s their choice. However, the Pledge of Allegiance should take place, for those that love and respect this nation. The non-citizens should show respect. I would do that if I was in their country. I would not go to their country and demand it not be practiced.
Feelings are personal. But Americans will say the pledge and people need to get used to it. You are in America. Wise to sit it out if you don’t want to say it but you should rightly acknowledge it isn’t going anywhere. Our nation and our freedom in America comes from God. Everyone should thank Christians for that even if you don’t choose to be Christian or American. All are welcome here, but our culture deserves to be honored if you are going to live here. Otherwise it is just whining and rudeness and not really honorable to say you hate Americans for being American.